THE ROLLER COASTER GATHERS PACE
By
Mickey Blue Eyes

Friday, 10th March 2006, 4.00 pm, and a third interview with CEO Keith Wyness. It has been the kind of two years he’ll tell his grandchildren about. And he nearly didn’t get that far……………………

MBE: Thanks for seeing me again, Keith. You’re now in your second year, but you had some serious problems during the Summer I believe.

KW: Yes. What you might call a “botched” operation. But I survived it and got back into the swing of things, no problem.

MBE: But you faced the Grim Reaper didn’t you?

KW: Yes, I was on the critical list for three nights. It was touch–and-go for a bit until natural defences kicked in to help the medical team. I didn’t know much about it.

MBE: So when did it happen?

KW: June.

MBE: When did you finally come out of it?

KW: I was down for about six weeks.

MBE: Not an easy time, then. That must have given you a new perspective on life. Is it the first time you’ve been that ill?

KW: No. I survived a broken neck in ’92, so I’ve had a couple of close calls. But so far so good, touch wood.

MBE: Bloody hell, you don’t do things by halves do you!?

KW: Not usually.

MBE: Okay, well back to harsh reality. The last time we spoke was in May 2005. You said then you would more than likely have more admin changes and you hoped by the end of this season to have in place the admin team you wanted. We know there’s been some changes. Do you propose any more?

KW: I think it’s a continuing process until we get it absolutely right. I think there are still some areas we would look to open and alter. But overall we’ve certainly made some strong moves to get things moving in the right direction.

MBE: You’ve got a new Number Two now, Robert Elstone.

KW: Yes, he’s been with us since last June. Robert’s been great, especially on the commercial side, and really getting things into the organisational style I want.

MBE: How far down the road would you say you are in terms of finally establishing the system you want?

KW: I think we’re about seventy-five percent towards the goal. It’s taking longer than I thought. A football club is a very delicate organism to change. We can’t do everything at once or the system breaks.

MBE: But of course the buck stops with the CEO.

KW: Absolutely. But we’re still making progress while we’re making the changes.

MBE: There have been some rumours of staff unhappiness within the club during implementation of the changes……….. People have been dismissed, possible industrial tribunals, that sort of thing. How do you react to that? Firstly, is it true?

KW: No, it isn’t true. Certainly there have been issues because change is never easy. It’s change that was needed and we are moving forward.

MBE: What’s your feeling about the general atmosphere in the club?

KW: I think we are beginning to see an understanding that we are going to be a much more professional organisation.

MBE: Does that mean “colder”?

KW: No, the opposite – one hopes more responsive. Maybe some people were used to a certain style over a long period of time. When you try to change direction it isn’t always easy for people to understand it. It’s all about being more professional and more responsive. That’s what we’re trying to do.

MBE: So you wouldn’t characterise the changes as being over-difficult?

KW: I think it’s just a normal change to make us a more professionally-run club.

MBE: Finances. Well, you got to your £60 million turnover target quickly…………

KW: ………………A season ahead of schedule thanks obviously to the performances on the pitch. They were a great help in doing it.

MBE: How much was due to performances on the pitch and non-playing activities? It’s quantifiable isn’t it?

KW: The increase in turnover was just on half-and-half. Probably slightly more coming from the playing side, but obviously you can’t rely on that every year. So I’m hopeful we can get close to the same numbers this year even though we won’t have as good a league position.

MBE: So what affect will this season have? It did look pretty ropey up to about Christmas?

KW: Yes. But providing we’re in the top half of the table then hopefully we’ll see the same kind of turnover numbers as last year.

MBE: Oh…………… You’re really confident about that?

KW: If we can hold those turnover numbers with a lesser league position then that will be progress in real terms.

MBE: I think it will be remarkable if you hold those figures, I really do. I mean, last season was a quantum leap by any measure.

KW: It was. Well, we always said this season was about stabilisation (to the bank manager as well!), to maintain us at that level before we could try and move on again.

MBE: Okay. Presumably as part of the changes you’re running a month-on-month accountancy check to see where we’re going from now?

KW: Absolutely.

MBE: So what’s your year-end projection at the moment, roughly?

KW: Well, I can’t go into the details because of stock market rules etc. All I can say is that if we end up in the top half of the table our turnover figures will be around what they were last season, hopefully, with a better quality of earnings at operating level.

MBE: Which leads me on neatly to my next question: What do we get from the JJB retail arrangement? What are our future merchandising plans?

KW: Believe it or not, with the stock we inherited we actually lost money last year. We lost about three quarters of a million pounds on the retail side.

MBE: Is that just because we were overstocked?

KW: We were overstocked, we bought badly, we bought at the wrong prices, we bought the wrong things. We bought too much of the wrong things. And that’s why we lost seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds despite finishing fourth. That clearly signalled that we are not a good shopkeeper. We did all we could to try and alleviate that. It would have been a lot worse if we hadn’t opened the new shops that we did to try and reduce the exposure. We’ve bought a lot better this year but we’re still not in a position to have the clout to buy effectively in China the numbers and quantity you need to get the right price. Retailing is all about buying properly. Philip Green has the clout because he buys en masse. We don’t. He has the scale. The main thing is for JJB to do that to guarantee us a profit each year.

MBE: So are you saying the size of their business guarantees more buying power and outlets?

KW: With the JJB deal we had before it was almost as though we were half-pregnant. Now they’ve got full responsibility they’re really going to move the Everton product properly through their stores.

MBE: Do we get any cash from the new deal?

KW: Yes. We get a guaranteed profit every year. So from a seven hundred and fifty thousand loss we now go to profit, so it’s a big turnaround in that area. Plus, it’s a three year deal. I did it for that period of time so we could review it at the end of the period and if we choose to go back in-house we can do so.

MBE: I suppose it must have something to commend it because JJB’s just done a deal with Rangers haven’t they?

KW: Well, they copied us! David Murray called me up from Rangers to discuss the structure of our deal so I think we’re on the right lines. They have a much greater retail demand than us.

MBE: So what are the future merchandising plans? Are you going to change the stock range?

KW: Yes. But this isn’t about our stores becoming JJB stores. They’ll always be Everton stores. They’ll always be the Everton brand, not JJB.

MBE: No, I didn’t meant that. I meant in terms of Everton products.

KW: Oh yes. Every year it will be refreshed. We are getting a better idea of what the fans want now.

MBE: Who does your design work? There have been criticisms of design standards from things as minor as car stickers to the most expensive items. I know you’ll always get complaints on this because a lot of it comes down to individual taste.

KW: There’s a whole variety of different design companies offering different products so there isn’t one particular group. But again with JJB we are going to get into much better quality designers. They do a lot of the work as well. You’ll see the Everton shirt for next season will have similar design elements to the new England shirt so we’ll always be on the cutting edge if you like.

MBE: And what will the policy be about changing strips? Will it be every year?

KW: Yes. We’ll still do three a year.

MBE: What about price levels? We all remember Freddie Shepherd’s famous quote about Geordies and shirts…………………

KW: I think you’ve already seen with the England shirt just come out, there’s a big price battle going on. There was a big law case last year on price-fixing of replica kits. JJB were fined on that. So that’s made them acutely aware about getting the right price to the fans. I think you’ll see a price reduction.

MBE: Really? Well, is that definite or is it that just you being optimistic?

KW: It’s just my guess. I think you’ll see the market fall from about forty pounds to about thirty five.

MBE: Anything that drops the price is welcome…………………..

KW: I’ve always said the yard stick on this, Mike, is the mothers and fathers who get pestered to buy the shirts. I still maintain it's good value. A replica shirt is never off the kids’ backs, morning, noon and night.

MBE: Value in what sense?

KW: That they wear it all year long.

MBE: Well, you try telling that to a family when they’ve got to kit out three kids all at the same time.

KW: Well, I’m just saying replica shirts provide good wear and tear for the price.

MBE: Okay. In the last interview I said words to the affect “We’ve got nothing left to hock” when it came to raising additional capital. Since then we’ve sold the Eileen Craven site and the Megastore itself. Can you clarify what’s happened there, and is that the last thing we’re going to be doing?

KW: No. We’ve also sold Netherton, the Youth Training site. This is all about financing the new Academy. All we’ve done is shift the assets around. We’ve sold three small bits to buy one big piece of sixty-five acres at Finch Farm. That’s what it’s all about. It isn’t as though we’ve sold things off and spent the money. The Academy is proceeding very well at the moment.

MBE: Ticket prices for next season?

KW: We are working on that right now……………..

MBE:………….Increases?…………….

KW: I think there’ll be small increases, though we’re trying to calculate reductions in some areas – the family side and juniors in particular. I don’t see major increases in the Lounges or Season tickets. But there will be some “tweaking” in prices which we’ll try to make as logical and sensible as possible.

MBE: Lounges. There’s been severe criticism that the “repositioning” you described in our last meeting has meant nothing really but increased prices. There’s been a lot of criticism of the level that’s been provided, the quality of it. And that would appear to be corroborated by the reduction in numbers. From where I sit in the Lower Street End there are large gaps in seats in the various Lounges. What are the comparative membership numbers in the Lounges “before” and “after”? Have we had a reduction?

KW: Well, there’s a reduction overall because, for instance, we reduced the total number in the Alex Young which we made all dining, so there’d automatically be smaller numbers there anyway. We took it from standing and drinking to dining only…………….

MBE: ………..So what’s the occupancy level?…………….

KW: We took it down from about sixteen hundred to about thirteen hundred now. We’ve been running at about eighty five-eighty six percent occupancy all year in the Lounges.

MBE: What were we running at before?

KW: We were at about ninety three-ninety four percent.

MBE: So there’s been a drop.

KW: There’s a drop in occupancy but we’ve seen a very big increase in the revenue generated from those areas. What we wanted to do was get us off the bottom of the table of revenue-generators from those facilities. We’re now off the bottom.

MBE: But that’s a cold accountancy exercise isn’t it? A lot of fans are unhappy at seeing so many empty seats – for whatever reason.

KW: Sure. We always knew this was going to be a two or three season transition period. But we HAD to make sure we generated the revenue from those seats. We’re still amongst the lowest in the Premiership for what we generate from those facilities. After all the bench-marking we’re still midtable in terms of pricing.

MBE: Okay. It’s possible to see the cold clear accountancy logic in that, however much it stings. I don’t suppose we can have it every which way. But what about the quality of what’s been offered?

KW: I know there’s been some delivery issues. For instance, we had problems with power supplies to the kitchens but that’s been resolved now. We’ve done a lot of customer satisfaction surveys on these issues and the results haven’t been that bad, actually. I know we’ve had some very vocal critics, but overall out of a score of “five” we’ve been getting a “three and a half” or a “four” average. Of course that means there’s room for improvement and that’s what we’re working on. We’re now working on how we deliver the catering for the rest of the season and next season.

MBE: Who is the caterer?

KW: We do it in-house at the moment but we’re looking at an outside company to help us improve and possibly get involved as well. They’re a world leader so it’s a big plus.

MBE: So you are looking to outsource?

KW: We’ll see if it’s feasible.

MBE: Do you have any further plans for the Lounges?

KW: There’ll be constant development of facilities in them. For instance, we’re putting plasma screens in if they’re not already provided, upgrading the toilets etc……….a continuous process.

MBE: Our European nightmare. Many fans still bridle at what happened, and I don’t mean on the pitch. Feelings still run high and I have to say it’s impossible to blame the fans for reacting the way they have. So the questions I’m about to ask, Keith, come from many sources, normally people who have nothing but good-will for the club – not a loony among them.

So the very first game we had, the home game with Villarreal, everyone would like to know how on earth we came to make the mess we did of issuing tickets for the match. Many people bought season tickets on the basis that, “Here we are in Europe for the first time in years, a season ticket will secure me match tickets.” Yet when that first effort was made, that didn’t materialise. How was that decision arrived at?

KW: We were left through circumstances beyond our control with about ten days left before the tie to get the tickets out. And……………..

MBE: ……………In which case why not print tickets well in advance without the opponent or even the date on them? Other clubs do that……………

KW: …………………But we didn’t have all the information at the time. There were still problems with Liverpool possibly being drawn at home at the same time, we didn’t know the dates, and UEFA have strict rules concerning issue of tickets for their games. The problem was if we were to allow a period for season ticket holders to buy in the time available we might have sold, say, ten thousand tickets and then had only a few nights to sell over thirty thousand tickets. That meant there would have been a huge number coming to pick up on the night because they couldn’t have been handled in time via the internet, through the mail or through other outlets. Now, people refuse to believe this, but the fact is we were told just after the terrorist bombings that we were one of the first high profile clubs to play and the police told us we might well have a cordon around the stadium searching everyone’s bags. If you’d had that plus a possible pick-up queue of ten thousand people there would have been chaos on the night. I know it was bad for the season ticket holders to queue up in a general sale but on the night itself it would have been much, much worse. We would have been sitting here talking about chaos on the night of the match………………….

MBE:…………………..But you still had to accommodate the season ticket holders, anyway. And you DID react, so it didn’t make that much difference. Had you done that in the first place………………….

KW:…………………..Well, actually, when we reacted we had sold enough tickets to feel that we would get through a pick-up comfortably. It was a difficult one. I took advice from the police and the experts within the club itself. We were more concerned about the night itself, that people didn’t miss any of the match. I think we would have seen a lot more irate fans if we hadn’t done what we did.

MBE: So in the same circumstances would you do the same thing?

KW: I don’t think we’ll ever come to the same situation where we had such a coincidence of events leaving us such a short time to sell tickets. But next time we’ll certainly try to ensure season ticket holders have at the very least a twenty-four hour window.

MBE: Well, I need hardly say that event created a lot of bad feeling where there was no need.

KW: I understand that. I can only say again those decisions were taken in the interests of safety on the night of the match. It was a very difficult period for us as well.

MBE: I’m sure it was! But the main issue remains that a lot of people bought season tickets on the basis they would get first preference for European games. And it didn’t happen – for whatever reason. For them, that’s the only dimension to this.

Next, the abandoned Bucharest flight. Is that travel company still retained?

KW: We still do some corporate work with them because we have a contract which has to be honoured. There is a contractual situation.

MBE: What’s likely to happen now? What is the club’s policy toward ATP and what happened?

KW: We are working through the contractual situation with them now. We did a complete investigation of the flight and its circumstances. Again, this is a number of coincidences that were beyond ATP’s control as well. We’ve already published a number of facts concerning the charter. How the plane was impounded at East Midlands Airport, pilots being sick at the time. In all my years flying I’ve never heard anything like it before. I bet you haven’t either.

MBE: The problem isn’t so much that, hard as it is to swallow. It was how it was handled on the day.

KW: Our investigation shows that was the weakest point.

MBE: Well, there were several problems. Can we deal first with one that may or may not be an urban legend – the allegation that we had two flights going, that the one that didn’t go was “bumped” in favour of corporate clients from the other flight.

KW: Categorically untrue.

MBE: The problem with that is that the fans were asked to go down to the gate to board. They got to the gate. They were held at the gate. And then the other flight was allowed through in front of them! And then everyone was told to go back to the waiting lounge! So you can see where the allegation comes from. People naturally assumed that a call to the gate meant they were going.

KW: That was a confusion by the ground handlers, Servisair. They came out with a lot of blame in the investigation.

MBE: The next issue concerns the club stewards. The feeling is that the stewards training was inadequate for this kind of situation. When it came to the crunch – and this comes from an impeccable source, a good friend of mine – the stewards basically fled the scene…………………

KW:……………But they weren’t there to steward the airport…………….

MBE: No, of course not – and that’s true – but that isn’t what is being said. Essentially the fans were abandoned. That’s how they felt. And it was particularly galling for them because they behaved throughout with great patience and good humour even while irritated. My friend witnessed the stewards being instructed to go while the fans were still stuck at the airport and not allowed to leave. It was made worse by the fact that up to 11.15 am (the fans had been there since 6.00 am) various stewards were coming up to people and telling them the flight announcement was due at any moment. It has since been said that some of the stewards knew as early as 7.00 am that the flight wasn’t going.

KW: That isn’t the case. I was still on the phone from Bucharest and our people here were too, still believing we could get that flight off the ground. The plane had been impounded by the airport authorities, which we didn’t realise. We then thought the lawyers were going to get it released and the flight was going to operate. When the airplane couldn’t leave East Midlands we still thought we could get a replacement from Manchester Airport. We still thought we could get going up to midday. In these situations a lot of people try to take it on themselves to pretend they know something when they don’t………………………

MBE: All of that said, the fans were terrific, they really were. And that’s why when the police arrived it made things much worse than it need be. They were heavy handed, unsympathetic and, once again, seemed to wash their hands of the whole affair. There were all sorts of things said to the fans – one was, “You have get on buses now and go to Liverpool city centre.” Of course most simply wanted to go home, a lot of them in the opposite direction to the city centre. In your inquiry, what reason was given for the way the police behaved?

KW: It seems the airport authorities miscommunicated to the police that there was a problem – or a potential problem – where there wasn’t one. We accept it was heavy-handed and we made that view clear to the police. Again, that airport-police communication is out of our control.

MBE: In my view that is where the stewards (had their brief been different) could have performed a very useful function in liaison with the police. But by the time the police arrived the stewards were gone.

KW: The biggest problem we identified was Servisair (the ground handler) did not provide updates for the fans as clearly and promptly as they should have done. In these situations the big priority must be to keep the fans fully informed. I think everyone these days accepts there are problems when flying and that is why it is essential to ensure delays are properly explained. We just had an extreme nightmare with this one. The charter company went out of business but we had a replacement airplane the night before. We checked at 5.00 am and it was ready to operate. The crew turned up on time to fly the aircraft. The pilot called in sick. We got another pilot who drove there. As the crew got on the aircraft the East Midlands Airport authorities decide to impound it. Had they told us at 5.00 am it might have helped. The lawyers still thought it could be resolved but the airplane wasn’t released until 5.00 pm that night. I’m sure they could have let it operate, but they didn’t. We then tried to get another airplane from Manchester but it didn’t work out.

MBE: It would be us wouldn’t it………………………..During our last interview you said that if we got knocked out of Europe at the first hurdle we’d make maybe £400-500,000. Was that an accurate forecast?

KW: Yes it was. We made slightly more.

MBE: All of which leads on to fans’ liaison, something you were particularly hot on during both previous interviews. What’s happened during the last year? Have you had many meetings? Who have you met?

KW: Yes, I’ve visited the fans in London, we’ve had several focus groups, but nobody else has taken me up on my offer to meet and talk. The offer remains open to all.

MBE: Do you have any plans to formalise it all?

KW: Well, there’s now the two Shareholders’ Associations I’m meeting with and we’re looking to do a fans’ forum with the Evertonia members. I’m open to any sensible group that would like to meet. We did one recently with the Downtown Business Group. I’m always happy to do it.

MBE: You’ve made that perfectly clear when I’ve met you. It’s up to the fans whether they take it up or not.

Transfer policies. Is it the policy of the club that David Moyes will see all of the players perform before we sign them? In competitive action, not on video…………..does he go and see them all?

KW: Yes, he does.

MBE: So what happened with Per Kroldrup?

KW: I think David’s made it clear………………..look, you can go and see players, you can watch them in Serie A, but until they’re over here playing in the Premiership you never really know how they’re going to react.

MBE: So there was as much misjudgment on our side as there was on Per Kroldrup’s side? But David did see him before he signed him?

KW: Yes, he was scouted several times. David’s meticulous.

MBE: The problem is of course, five million (or whatever it was) might be peanuts for others but for us it’s a huge amount. And we lost on the deal when Per was sold on didn’t we?

KW: We did. Who knows, had he stayed and played for us would he have come good? But David made the judgment in the end that he wanted him to move on. You look at David’s ratio of success and his has been much higher than many managers’.

MBE: Well, you’ve only got to look at Alex Ferguson for that. I mean, he’s spent millions upon millions and some of them have been absolute duds!

Will money be available in the Summer?

KW: Yes. I can’t give amounts, but David knows there is some money available as there was in January. We’re working on targets at the moment.

MBE: Okay. I’m under strict instructions from Steve at Bluekipper to thump the table and demand, “WHY THE HELL HAVEN’T WE BOUGHT A STRIKER?”!

KW: We did try for several strikers in January but the ones we wanted weren’t available at anywhere near the right price. We’re not going to buy somebody just for the sake of buying somebody. And the system the manager’s playing is working quite well just now.

MBE: The turnaround is another Moyes miracle, really.

The boardroom. Do the same conditions appertain?

KW: Yes. It’s been relatively quiet because I think the board have confidence that we’re managing the club well so there’s been no need to have any strong talking.

MBE: Are any changes proposed in the boardroom at present?

KW: Nothing at the moment.

MBE: Back to our old friend “new investment.” Have there been any kind of realistic moves on that front?

KW: There’s two things that are going to make a difference for us. Now we are at the sixty million turnover mark, if we can sustain that it will be great. But the next step up to around the eighty-to-one hundred million turnover level will mean we have to get a new stadium or new investment, or both. That’s the realistic situation. We can’t move much further with existing resources. But in getting to the sixty million turnover mark we have demonstrated we are running the club at a more professional level. That means we are relatively more attractive to new investors. Some people will throw their money emotionally at a football club but every sensible investor will want to know it is being run right.

Yes, we have been talking continually. But it is still difficult for everyone in the industry. We have been close but no cigar yet. However we are being looked at more than before by some of the investment groups out there who look at football.

MBE: Has there been a sea-change, then, in that area of the game?

KW: I wouldn’t go that far but I would say the tide’s turning. Football is becoming a bit more respectable after being a pariah in the years following the Leeds situation. Now people are looking at it a bit more sensibly because we can show the game isn’t just a financial black hole. We’ve got a better chance of attracting investment. Despite that it’s still hard. You’ve seen the investment sagas across the park amongst others.

MBE: I’m not convinced that rights issues are the way out of it either. There’s an awful lot of nonsense spouted about them in football. Many of them are just scams or another way of selling short. However, there surely is a place for the idea, whatever financial form it comes in, for inviting fans to invest. Most of us have spoken about it before but it’s never moved forward one iota. I cannot see what’s wrong with asking ten thousand fans to put in £1,000 each for a total of ten million. So long as everything is absolutely transparent and the fans know exactly where the money’s going, what it’s being used for and what they get out of it. For our club that’s a huge amount. What’s your approach to that?

KW: It’s something I’ve been working on for the last three months. It would be an offering of some type to the fans. Now, we’re not there yet in terms of the final resolution, what level it should be priced at, what the benefits should be, there’s still a lot of work to do on it. But there’s absolutely no problem from our side in terms of wanting to do something like that. We have to get it right because the last thing we want is for it to fail. There are things the fans would probably allow it to be used for such as the new Academy. The timing is about right now.

MBE: If the fans can see clear benefits I believe it would get them closer to the club. If it’s broached and administered in the right way I see it as nothing but good. Are you saying, Keith, you have something planned?

KW: We’re looking at three or four options and the timing of it.

MBE: What kind of time scale do you have in mind?

KW: I hope we can have some news on it before the end of the year.

MBE: The stadium. Is a shared stadium dead? In a recent interview you were quoted as saying messrs. Moores and Parry said it would be over their dead bodies!

KW: With the existing ownership I think it is dead. However, if that changes, who knows? But by then it might be too late because we might have moved ourselves.

MBE: The reality is of course we don’t have a minimum of a hundred million to spend on a stadium. So it’s the same old question: Where’s the money going to come from? I know there are various kinds of property deals where the club is the main “anchor” and therefore, theoretically, gets the stadium relatively cheaply. However, property developers are always flying a speculative kite, which is not the same thing as actually skewering a project.

KW: The key to this is the three pillars of stadium funding. The first one is planning gain from ancillary projects around the stadium, secondly is local and/or national government finance, thirdly any long term debt the club will take on itself. We are now in a position where we can take on some long term debt. We are getting closer to seeing a pragmatic, deliverable project coming out. I hope to see something coming out of it by the end of the year.

MBE: Are you just being optimistic now? After all, you’ve made pretty much the same comments during the last two interviews. Most informed fans know the business can’t really move forward without a new stadium. The question is……….when, where, how?

KW: Then again, after the Blackburn game you think how good Goodison is as well. It’s a serious choice because it’s something we’ll be stuck with for fifty or a hundred years possibly.

MBE: So, where do we stand?

KW: Unfortunately commercial confidence means I cannot put anything further into the public domain. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. I’ve given you enough clues as to how we’ll make it work!

MBE: The Academy. What’s the position now?

KW: Well, we’re just finishing up all the pitch works, which is the first stage of the development………………….

MBE:……………Have you a fixed price contract for the entire project?…………….

KW: Yes, we have. Keir is the construction company.

MBE: Okay. Well that kills another urban myth, that we’re doing it bit by bit because we haven’t allocated the full amount for a finished project because we haven’t got the money.

KW: No, no, no. We start construction work middle to end of April. It should be ready for the end of next season. We haven’t made a big thing about it because there won’t be anything to see until construction starts, as you know.

MBE: The Everton Collection put together by David France. What’s the situation on that?

KW: Not good news at the moment. We haven’t hit some of the hoped-for targets. I’m hoping to reconvene with fans’ groups to see if there any other ideas for moving it forward. It’s something I passionately believe in for the club, but it’s stuck on the money angle. We’ve got to about half the money required. We’re looking to arrange some big events to raise the remainder of the cash. Some of the other things we tried haven’t worked. David’s been very patient so far in helping us. We’ve passed the time limits already but we’re going to keep on working to make this work. We still plan to place it in the new Museum and some of it in the Public Records Office. Everybody will have access to it – somebody called me the other day wanting to do an MBA dissertation on the history in the change in administration of a football club. This would have been perfect for them to have access to it. Everyone should know the history of the club and be able to see it for themselves. It’s spectacular, easily the best collection of its type in the world.

MBE: To close, personal views on the Premier League set-up? You must have heard from more than I that the fans don’t like it. By that I don’t mean the product, I mean the way the game is administered. In fact I think playing-wise the game is going through something of a golden age – there have never been higher standards of fitness, individual technical ability, team play. The problem is in the concentration of finances amongst a few clubs, which in turn concentrates the chances of success. In the past we had the chance of somebody like Nottingham Forest or Ipswich coming through to win the league or another trophy. But that has vanished now and under the present set-up it isn’t going to come back any day soon. Do you see it changing?

KW: Well, there are some moves to change the TV revenue split. That’s one way of making it more equitable. There are also some moves to change the position and function of agents. Every league in the world has its dominant teams. Spain has Real Madrid and Barcelona, in Italy Juventus and Milan etc.

MBE: No, I didn’t mean that. Our game was radically different from the way the Spanish, Italian and German Leagues were set up. Now we’re moving closer to their model. And we all feel a sense of loss about that.

KW: Are you thinking more of wage caps?

MBE: Not just that, Keith. A whole list of measures are required. I’m certainly not pretending it is an easy task. And the game definitely needed reform in the 80s – nobody has the slightest doubt about that. However, the vast majority of fans believe the reforms that were done were wrong. It’s true one of the problems is players’ wages, where many fans feel the players don’t deserve or earn their high wages. I don’t share this entirely but I can see why they say it. Mainly, it’s the level of money going through the game and how it is distributed that concerns us all. For instance under the old Football League format the gate proceeds were split equitably, but that’s not the case now. Which is bound to make the greedy more greedy. In my view it needs such a radical overhaul it would have to be done at European level, through changes in the law. Mere change in England would be next to useless.

KW: What I see is something even broader, a global shift. I think the Asian associations are going to get their act together in the next five to ten years. You’re going to find yourself bidding for a player against “Shanghai United.” So then is it a global level playing field? Would Europe be handicapped up against the Asian market? So you’re looking at FIFA administration of the game, not just UEFA.

MBE: What it comes down to is the place of professional sport in any society and how you want it to link to communities. None of these are easy matters to resolve and I wouldn’t pretend they are. What I would say is there is a deep sense of disappointment amongst the fans which is bound to manifest somewhere sooner or later. Also, there’s no question in my mind the novelty factor of the Premier League is finally beginning to ebb. You only have to look at many of the stadia now and there is an increasing number of empty seats – not yet serious but certainly noticeable. In my view unless there are cultural changes on a very broad front – I agree absolutely it is going to be a matter for FIFA sooner or later– I don’t see anything effective happening.

KW: But the Premier League is still dominant. On TV there are 187 countries show it, nine and a half billion people watched it last year. What I’m concerned about is the Premier League won’t be able to keep that going in international markets so we’re not capitalising on it fully just now. The TV money has been the rocket fuel to make the League go forward. That’s why we’ve got the foreign players we have.

Any change in the Premier League requires fourteen votes. It’s often very hard to get those votes for change. The clubs you think would vote for things, don’t. There’s all sorts of hidden agendas.

MBE: I was astounded when I looked at the founding of the Premier League and the “new” Football League and the high level of votes for it all. It was like turkeys voting for Christmas.

KW: Sepp Blatter currently wants the Premier League to consist of sixteen teams.

MBE: That would be a mistake.

KW: Well, his brief is to promote international football. I think there are some big collisions coming up. We discussed the use of technology aids for referees at great length just recently at a Premier League meeting. Personally I think the referees have had a hard season. I don’t think it’s been good enough. After the Baros handball at Villa I spoke to Keith Hackett and he said he has only sixteen fit referees therefore he couldn’t reprimand them that much! So we have to get more referees somehow, possibly through a referees’ Academy. No other business would accept that as an excuse.

MBE: Has your attitude to the G14 Group changed? You were less than in support of them.

KW: No, not at all. I don’t like any polarisation where the rich look after the rich.

MBE: Agents. The biggest bugbear in the game. Nobody likes them. What are the moves afoot now? How will it rationalise?

KW: The proposal now is that the players will be responsible for paying the agents themselves, which is what we voted for. We think it will lead to greater transparency for the players and overall a reduction in the amount of money going out. If the players realised what these fees are I think they’d be quite shocked.

MBE: Actually, if the players would use the Players’ Union there’d be no need for agents and more money would stay within the game……………

Well, thanks very much indeed, Keith. Thank you for your time.

KW: Thanks, Mike. A pleasure. (16/03/05)

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